And what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
Looks to be earlier in the war. No chin turrets and the waist gun positions are not staggered. Nearest waist gunner and ball turret are firing. Next ship over, waist gunner is tracking target. Ball turret is pointed straight down, which is the position it must be in to open the hatch and exit into the plane.
Ditto RHT, I saw that as well. Middle waist is tracking over the wing. Man, the skill to hit the enemy and not your buddies..... And they are in close formation. Gravy, what men!!
I always wondered, in the heat of the battle with literally hundreds of B-17's flying in tight formations, how in the heck they did not shoot the hell out of one another.
Two great uncles. One a Ball and the other a Tail gunner in the S. Pacific. Both came home but Uncle Al, when drunk, which was most of the time always went back.
B-17 E's, mid to late '42 as there are no extra guns in the nose. Also there should be a height stagger so shooting the plane next to you is harder. The chin turret and the staggered side windows come with the G model. And yes they shot each other but nobody bitched about it.
No. Those are Mid to late 43-44 B-17"F"'s made by Vega. You can tell by the Bombadeer's plexiglass. It is pointed at the top, longer and deeper than the "E", and has only one stringer. The two bombers have "closed up", with the third. They were usually much further apart. If you look at the outside B-17 there is oil all over the engine and wing. The inside B-17 would only have the ball pointed down like that in combat to pull the gunner out. Those boys are getting the shit raked out of them, by a "tail pass". They are firing at several targets at once. I wonder if that is film of the "Bloody 100th." The 100th bomb group. Tail end Charlie for the whole 8th AF 13 times. You should read the book. The story of the 100th bomb group is heart breaking. They were the most shot up unit in WW2. ---Ray
I have mentioned here and elsewhere that my dad was a B-17 pilot and flew 35 combat missions over Europe. Here is a photo from his bomb group, the 447th, in a "combat box" formation. The photo is of the ship Blue Hen Chick. The photographer and Blue Hen Chick are in the low squadron, with the high squadron in the background. The lead squadron is to the left, out of the photo.
The Father in Law of a very good friend was a waist gunner on one of these. He was shot down over Poland and spent 2 years in a Luft stalag. There is not enough room here to relate the stories he had to tell. They were Men, back then. I don't see how any of us will ever measure up.
Looks to be earlier in the war. No chin turrets and the waist gun positions are not staggered. Nearest waist gunner and ball turret are firing. Next ship over, waist gunner is tracking target. Ball turret is pointed straight down, which is the position it must be in to open the hatch and exit into the plane.
ReplyDeleteDitto RHT, I saw that as well. Middle waist is tracking over the wing. Man, the skill to hit the enemy and not your buddies..... And they are in close formation. Gravy, what men!!
ReplyDeleteI always wondered, in the heat of the battle with literally hundreds of B-17's flying in tight formations, how in the heck they did not shoot the hell out of one another.
ReplyDeleteThe bombers crews in Europe suffered more killed than did the Marines in the Pacific.
ReplyDeleteThe crew "pucker factor" was redlined.
ReplyDeleteTwo great uncles. One a Ball and the other a Tail gunner in the S. Pacific. Both came home but Uncle Al, when drunk, which was most of the time always went back.
ReplyDeleteB-17 E's, mid to late '42 as there are no extra guns in the nose. Also there should be a height stagger so shooting the plane next to you is harder. The chin turret and the staggered side windows come with the G model. And yes they shot each other but nobody bitched about it.
ReplyDeleteSpin
No. Those are Mid to late 43-44 B-17"F"'s made by Vega. You can tell by the Bombadeer's plexiglass. It is pointed at the top, longer and deeper than the "E", and has only one stringer. The two bombers have "closed up", with the third. They were usually much further apart. If you look at the outside B-17 there is oil all over the engine and wing. The inside B-17 would only have the ball pointed down like that in combat to pull the gunner out. Those boys are getting the shit raked out of them, by a "tail pass". They are firing at several targets at once. I wonder if that is film of the "Bloody 100th." The 100th bomb group. Tail end Charlie for the whole 8th AF 13 times. You should read the book. The story of the 100th bomb group is heart breaking. They were the most shot up unit in WW2. ---Ray
DeleteI have mentioned here and elsewhere that my dad was a B-17 pilot and flew 35 combat missions over Europe. Here is a photo from his bomb group, the 447th, in a "combat box" formation. The photo is of the ship Blue Hen Chick. The photographer and Blue Hen Chick are in the low squadron, with the high squadron in the background. The lead squadron is to the left, out of the photo.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.americanairmuseum.com/media/11204
Diagram of combat box--
http://iloveww2warbirds.com/combat-box-formation-for-bombers-wwii/
The Father in Law of a very good friend was a waist gunner on one of these. He was shot down over Poland and spent 2 years in a Luft stalag. There is not enough room here to relate the stories he had to tell. They were Men, back then. I don't see how any of us will ever measure up.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure we'll have our chance.
Delete